Le opere d’arte nascono sempre da chi ha affrontato il pericolo, da chi è arrivato in fondo ad un’esperienza, fino al punto che nessun umano può superare .
R.M. Rilke, Lettres (1900-1911)
Da cosa è nata la passione per Dante? È stata una scelta dettata da esigenze di ricerca o da ragioni personali?
Il poeta mi ha colpito sin da bambino. Non c’è un perché, una misteriosa chiamata verso questo autore. Parafrasando le sue parole io lo considero “il mio maestro, il mio autore” nella mia pratica narrativa critica e tramite lui ho imparato a rileggere il mondo con categorie da lui mutuate ed adattandole al nostro tempo.
Su Dante esiste una mole sterminata di studi critici. Mi sembra che gli orientamenti più recenti mirino a recuperare la fisionomia “multiculturale” dell’opera dantesca in quanto capace di convogliare istanze classiche, medievali, scientifiche, teologiche e di trasferirle a noi lettori moderni sotto forma di messaggio vivo e interlocutorio. Accanto ai rigorosi studi di Sapegno di Contini e di Santagata che hanno fatto scuola mi sembra utile citare Marcello Carlini che ha sottolineato proprio questo aspetto nei suoi studi. Qual è il tuo pensiero in proposito e il tuo metodo di indagine?
Mi interessa questo approccio multiculturale che evidenzi. Mi preme liberare Dante dall’immagine di un monolitico autore medioevale. Dante ha uno sguardo più plurale e pluralista di quanto si possa immaginare. Non esiste una sola teologia in Dante ma tante teologie. Questa operazione che non è frutto di eclettismo ma di indagine filosofica e ontologica di altissimo genio permetteva la convivenza di San Tommaso con il suo nemico Sigieri di Brabante, quando serviva. Ne derivava un mosaico vertiginoso, fatto di spinte e controspinte, ma perfettamente coerente. Un altro aspetto dell’approccio multiculturale riguarda le influenze dell’Islam e dell’ ebraismo, i “cristianesimi e i paganesimi”.
E chiaramente anche l’influenza della mistica che mi sembra importante rilevare nel bagaglio culturale del poeta.
Sì, qui arriviamo ad un punto importante della mia lettura. Uno dei tentativi è stato quello di recuperare il misticismo. Ritengo che Dante sia non solo un grande teologo. É un filosofo di tempra assoluta- il Convivio è il primo libro di filosofia italiana- . Credo che sia anche un mistico come potrebbe essere Giovanni della Croce o come Rumi nella cultura islamica. Mentre però per questa cultura la coincidenza tra l’essere poeta e mistico è quasi naturale, nella ricezione di Dante, specie accademica, l’aspetto del misticismo è stato un po’ occultato. Per cui ritengo importante recuperare la triade uomo-mistico-poeta: leggere Dante ricordando che c’è una vicenda umana più o meno rievocata, considerare il suo misticismo come frutto di un’esperienza vissuta e trasfigurata poi in linguaggio simbolico e codificato. Se il teologo parla di Dio da teorico, il mistico ne parla perche lo ha “esperito” o l’ha incontrato dentro di sé, nell’ altro, nell’ amore. La parola esperienza, peraltro, è una parola che ritorna spesso nella Commedia.
Vorrei chiederti del titolo del tuo lavoro, La selva oscura (Leima Press 2018) che mi sembra interessante perché richiama un’immagine ben precisa ma allo stesso tempo ricca di suggestioni polisemiche e aperture simboliche. La lettura allegorica più accreditata che poi è divenuta anche linterpetazione “vulgata” è quella del peccato che ottenebra l’uomo e devia dal percorso virtuoso. Potremmo considerarla l’allegoria madre della Commedia ma come mi pare suggerisci tu, anche molto altro.
Secondo me la selva oscura è una delle immagini più geniali della commedia. Come dici tu la vulgata esiste e ha anche una sua utilità.
Anche didattica, se vogliamo.
Certo, anche didattica. A volte ironizzo e dico Dante era bravo con le rime, pertanto se avesse voluto usare la parola peccato l’avrebbe usata. Selva oscura invece è un’immagine complessa: è un bosco, sogno, incubo, superfiaba, onirica, reale?. A volte ho pensato selva oscura fosse l’esilio. Ma se avesse scelto questa parola il senso sarebbe stato limitato alla propria esperienza personale. La selva oscura per me, come scrivo nel mio libro, invece può essere una grande zona d’ombra della realtà personale, uno smarrimento un caos esistenziale, una depressione. Una volta una mia studentessa che vuole il caso si chiamasse Beatrice, mi scrisse in un tema: “Per me la selva oscura è l’anoressia e Dante mi dà la speranza di poterne uscire” e questa cosa mi commosse. E’ chiaro che dante non pensasse all’anoressia ça va sans dire, ma per lei significò questo. Vale la pena di ricordare quei famosi versi “ma per trattare del bene ch’io vi trovai e delle altre cose che io vi ho scorte” come primo cortocircuito di un sistema complesso.
Certo, sono espressioni della presenza divina in ogni dimensione, compresa quella del male. Versi ai quali potrebbero fare da pendant “vuolsi così colà ove si puote ciò che si vuole”. I dannati e i beati ne partecipano a livelli e significati profondamente diversi. Le dimensioni etiche si confrontano pur rimanendo confinate in un sistema perfetto che è retaggio del sistema morale di stampo aristotelico.
Questo piano è presente c’è anche un inferno etico. E questa sfera etica emerge nel politico. Dante infatti non ragione secondo la morale borghese individualista e la scelta del male ha una ricaduta sul bene comune e per Dante questo è un orrore. L’inferno del resto è una città rovesciata, un simbolo del male incarnato nel tempo e nella società. I peccati vanno rivisitati anche sotto questa lettura comprese le allegorie iniziali, compresa la lussuria. I peccati più gravi sono infatti legati alle dimensione della collettività e della politica.
Gianni Vacchelli
Ritornando alla didattica e ai modi di restituire la Commedia a chi la studia: questo testo, cosi ricco e stratificato, si realizza soprattutto attraverso immagini. La potenza icastica delle descrizioni dell’Inferno è tale da potere parlare di un cromatismo dantesco perfettamente desumibile da riferimenti testuali. La Commedia potrebbe essere interamente dipinta, tante e tali le suggestioni visive ma anche olfattive, uditive. Si potrebbe mappare l’intero medioevo. L’ aggettivo “atra” ad esempio ricorre con grande frequenza ed è il tono principale, insieme al rosso, dei quadri e delle scene infernali. Dante come produttore di immagini è una strada interessante da percorrere, non credi?.
Sì. Ai miei studenti dico “inventore del cinema settecento anni prima”. Questa potenza dell’immaginazione che in Dante è immaginazione creatrice intesa anche come “sesto senso”. Dante non ha solo fantasia, immaginazione una cosa più profonda. Le immagini sono anche degli archetipi.
E pertanto trascendono l’epoca in cui sno state prodotte e si rivelano anche attuali, nella loro forza simbolica.
Certo, Dante è figlio del medioevo ma un’interpretazione filologica è limitante. Io sono filologo di formazione ma convinto che Dante trascenda continuamente il suo tempo.
Come è stata concepita questa opera di genio? A proposito del modus operandi e del farsi della poiesis, è indubbio che Dante abbia costruito un’architettura formale perfetta basandosi anche sui modelli della letteratura allegorica, e dei poemi didascalici. Ma vi sono delle zone inspiegabili talvolta, e delle immagini che sembrano attingere da regioni che trascendono la costruzione del verso e della rima. Talvolta ad esempio Dante sembra aprirsi a delle vere e proprie visioni che potremmo definire mistiche o anche solo immaginative. Mi ha anche sempre molto incuriosito lo stratagemma del deliquio, a fare da cerniera talvolta tra un canto ed un altro. Mi fa pensare a quelle sospensioni della coscienza che talvolta emergono dalla scrittura più di rado nella poesia religiosa e mistica ma anche nel romanzo moderno. Non solo come topos (da Lucrezio al “Somnium Scipionis”, fino al deliquio di Myškin in Dostoevskij) o stratagemma retorico ma come una possibilità di forzare la coscienza e aprire una breccia.
Dante secondo me è un esploratore degli stati di coscienza. Oltre allo stato di coscienza di veglia c’è lo stato di coscienza del sonno, del sonno profondo, esiste un’oniromanzia medioevale. C’è un antico codice che mostra Dante che dorme e accanto appare la pagina della Divina Commedia con lo stesso Dante all’interno della selva oscura. In modo moderno potremmo dire che l’emisfero destro e l’emisfero sinistro lavorano in accordo. Questo uomo sta nella visione e anche nell’inconscio. Ragione e visione; si pensa che la mistica sia irrazionalismo. Dante non rinnega la ragione ma ci sono cose alle quali essa non arriva.
Ecco, mi pare che siamo concordi nel dire che questa è una chiave di lettura della tua “selva oscura”. Come si accorda il tema politico, così pregnante nella Commedia, con tutte le sue urgenze e contingenze, con questa dimensione che hai ben delineato?
Come ho detto prima per me si tratta di mistica politica. A partire dalla stessa selva, questa metafora racchiude il momento storico in cui il papato i comuni, guelfi e ghibellini si consumavano in un disastro politico: è un momento di traviamento umano in cui le istituzioni barcollano. La chiesa è ad Avignone, Bonifacio VIII, il Guasco, insomma Dante sta dicendo: “Il mondo sta cadendo a pezzi”. La discesa nelle tenebre del tempo nasce dalla discesa in sé, un invito a fare un cammino interiore e a calarsi dentro il tempo. Alla fine di questo cammino lui denuncia: la lupa, il veltro e il messaggio politico che coinvolge interiorità e spazio politico.
Qual è la fisionomia di Dante politico alla luce della sua visione politica?
Nonostante sia stato considerato un reazionario di destra, per me Dante, e uso un termine non dantesco, ha una teoria critica, cioè io lo considero un francofortese ante litteram. É già Adorno e Horkheimer prima di loro; considera il passaggio di una civiltà che diventerà borghese e mercantile e che sarà basata su principio di quantificazione) e torniamo alla lupa, alla cupiditas, al peccato dell’accumulo che contamina tutti i livelli sociali.
Per concludere: a proposito del tema del corpo. Il fatto che Dante compia questo cammino ultramondano con il suo corpo, in carne ed ossa, in un certo senso riporta al tuo concetto di mistica vissuta e non solo “immaginata”. in un certo senso questo fa da specchio per i personaggi che via via si interrogano sulla sua sostanza e di rimando sulla propria.
Il tema del corpo, particolarmente rilevante nel Purgatorio, è molto importante. Scherzando dico: questo è lo yoga dantesco. Il corpo è talvolta opaco, si trasforma, va lavorato. Anche il tema dell’amore ne è intriso. Ad esempio io contesto la lettura di Paolo e Francesca laddove si parla di un amore per eccesso e che Dante condanni in maniera bigotta questa dimensione erotica. Leggendo i testi, e i testi parlano chiaro, ad esempio nella Vita nuova, vi è l’immagine della donna che gli mangia il cuore. Lui la vede e trema, i tre centri pancia testa e cuore sono in subbuglio. Questo aspetto pertanto va tenuto in considerazione. Quando incontra Beatrice in Paradiso, canto XXX, dice : “Conosco i segni dell’antica fiamma”, e qui è Didone che parla, emblema di un amore erotico e passionale. La visione verticalizzata di Dante va rivisitata.
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